A Justice Site
Mirror Sites:
CSUDH - Habermas - UWP - Archives
California State University, Dominguez Hills
University of Wisconsin, Parkside
Created: February 3, 2005, March 30, 2005
Latest Update: May 16, 2005
jeannecurran@habermas.org
takata@uwp.edu
Learning Records for Independent Study on Religion
Peter wrote April 7, 2005 - Message No. 3905:I really liked this weeks topic. It is something I am very much in sync with. We can learn so much by looking to our animal companions. I do a little creative writing here and there for my online blog and this week's topic inspired me to pay tribute to my own adorable little teachers, so I thought I'd share it with all of you:
One by one they paraded in. They each made their own unique spot, now irreplacable by any other. He never imagined it would happen again, not after what the cancer did. The first one immediately took ownership. Fresh and innocent, but with a natural palyfulness that brought upon endless endearments. It was totally unexpected and it made him stray away from the original plan. He is all about the planning, but sometimes that which is spontaneous wins him over as if there is no other way. Second came the actaul plan of action. He had waited out but got his way. He made several attempts and knew exactly what belonged. When the second arrived, he knew there would be much work involved and a great cost, but how could he put a price on such an unconditional love. He took care of waht needed to be done, the way he always does, and did not think twice about it. When the third arrived, it was originally to smooth the transition of it all. But now it is the middles that are nearly inseparable. The third is the master of curiousty, traveling to new places and soaring high above everyone. Like the second, this one had a little crookedness about him, but that always attracted him. What is perfect but perfectly boring? It is the flaws of nature that bring about true beauty, besides, what is inside glows so brightly that is surpasses any outside quirk. The trilogy was thought to be complete and remained as such for some time. That was until the timid one found a way in. With baby adorability and a constant hunger, the fourth shone in a truly unique way, just as his counterparts do. Collectively, they've done more for him than any could possibly fathom. Individually, they have each proved themselves a necessity and have each helped him overcome times of distress. They continue to teach him on a daily basis. They chase the bubbles that blow in and out, but he would follow them anywhere. Sometimes he just has to stop and take in their purity. Sometimes, he just has to stop and embrace them and all they offer. All the time, he loves them...
jeanne responded: Wednesday, April 7, 2005. Message No. 3914:
Peter, how great to hear from you again. Where's your blog? I included you in my blog today: jeanne's world on April 7, 2005.
jeanne responded in terms of theory on Monday, May 16, 2005.
Peter, I didn't respond with theory when I first posted this because I was distracted with templates and other stuff. Now I would like to point out that as you speak of your cats you ae really giving us an example of listening to behavior in good faith. By paying attention and being aware of the sequence of behaviors you can actually tell what your cats are telling you, without language. Thus aware, the bonding and the relationship is more satisfying. The fact that we can do this with animals suggests how little we practice it with the humans we fail to understand. jeannePeter wrote may 18, 2005 - Message No. 4826:
To expand further on the subject of my family members who happen to be animals, I'd like to share some thoughts. When Sonny the kitty nudges my hand, I know he wants to be scratched. When Charlie the dog leaves my side and wanders around the house, I know he wants to go outside. When Nite Sprite the kitty jumps on my lap and instantly closes his eyes, I know he wants my attention. When Fred the Fish swims continuously to the top of his bowl, I know he is hungry. When Moonlight the cat nudges my ankles, I know he wants to be held. None of them said anything, but yet I always know. Like Jeanne says, I listen in good faith. They speak volumes through their behavior and so do our human companions. We become dependant on language when those of us who are animal lovers are clearly able to communicate without langugage. And even though humans have the ability to speak, how many of us actually hear what we are listening to? In one of my faveorite novels, the Joy Luck Club, one of the mothers in the story talks about how her daugther will hear her calling even though she has said nothing. Another says that her daughter will know her meaning through a single feather, a symbol of everything she went through. If we took the time to actually listen to actions, we would actually hear a lot more. Actions are not silent, they can speak volumes. Perhaps that is the most important lesson we can learn from our animal friends.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, May 18, 2005. Message No. 3914:
Peter, you've said it so well. Yes, a feather can say it all, when we are tuned in. By that time we've moved over to the Dalai Lama's territory. But isn't it strange how well we slip into so many different perspectives once we achieve a genuine good faith awareness to Others, all Others, including creatures? jeanne
Taneisha wrote March 30, 2005 - Message No. 4795:jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 2, 2005. Message No. 3379:
. . .
Rocio wrote March 30, 2005 - Message No. 3379:Hey, I agree with you about the media exploitation of how gangs use revenge and how each side inflicts death, harm, fear towards each other. As far as I know - media is first path of misinformation to be traveled. Media's main job is to create chaos between groups - that way the masses control the little people. The minority - inflicting wrong information about two groups - causing more aggression with each other.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
Big question, folks. Media and the role of journalism. The Internet has drastically affected this issue by offering a means of information distribution to those who are not corporate-sponsored. Even so, the competition for readers, the difficulty of choosing between som many sources of information, the dilemma of checking authorities, all make us realize that the distribution of information is a major issue for public concern.
Rocio, your post would seem to take the position of the left, that the corporate conservative right manipulates the news to its own advantage, which it certainly does. But as we go more deeply into the problem, we discover that all sides are plagued by the dearth of means to get their ideas before the public, even those who have good ideas and whose work would command our respect. The sad truth is that no one is really in control here, and that we need collectively to come up with better means of communicating both public events and governance ideas and decisions. jeanne
Rocio wrote on May 11, in Message No. 4705:
This is a totally harsh topic. eating disorders are hard to break, especially if you use your eating habits as an escape from something. But I have to say that media (TV, magazines, radio ....) contribute to this problem.If we did not have the media as a way of polluting our brains we would not even know what an eating disorder is. Nowadays we have an image of how we are supposed to look and dress and eat, sleep and even talk - depending on the situation and place we are attending. It is all wrong. Who knows how exactly we are supposed to look like, or what our weight is supposed to be like? We must follow how our bodies feel and go from there, not how society wants us to look.
jeanne responded: MaMay 20, 2005. Message No. 4892:
Rocio, one way of saying this in terms of academic theory would be to speak of the media as presenting "dominant discourse." Dominant discourse is tyrannical in that it does not tolerate much difference. This approach fits in with a strongly conservative institutional attitude where rules apply to all with little attention to whether or not they fit. Habermas calls this a non-learning biofeedback system. I'd like you to let me know that you understand this more formal way of expressing your ideas. jeanne
Stacey wrote May 8, 2005 - Message No. 4621:At bible study in my church, someone raised a quesion to my pastor about what he felt about the seperation of church and state. He stated that if it were not seperate, think about how the government would be able to come into our sanctuaries and tell us how to worship, when to worship, where to worship, and who to worship.
LET FREEDOM RING !!!!!!!
jeanne responded: Tuesday, May 10, 2005. Message No. 4652:
What a good answer, Stacey. That brings us back around to privacy and how important is our constitutional protection of privacy. When the student at NYU asked Justice Scalia if he sodomized his wife, he was illustrating by the panic and confusion the very statement of the question caused just how important privacy in our human relationships is. Your pastor is respecting the privacy of our relationship with our God. jeanne
Minerva wrote May 13, 2005 - Message No. 4746:
I believe, that is not neccessary to go to a temple to worship GOD, but is defenitely a good , if there is an specific place to pray and worship GOD, because some people do not go to church, but they still don't worship anywhere else. On the other hand GOD is everywhere, therefore we should not lose faith and continue our path to salvation. If we do good things, we will be compensated in the after life. Just some thoughts!.jeanne responded: Tuesday, May 16, 2005. Message No. 3749:
Minerva, it is good that you considered your response from opposite perspectives. Actually some social theory will help. Look at my responses to Denice Roberts and Thelma Rodriguez for ways to conceptually link your response to religion as a social issue. jeanne
Thursday, February 3, 2005. Message No. 2931
I'm not saying that we don't have to acknowledge and recognize what's going on "dominant discourse," but if we are trying to change it why engage it. Feelings are to be put out there honestly but it should not be insulting. I told a few people about the group and they checked it out and some were offended. It's true that we have our opinions but we should express them without insulting opponents.jeanne responds: Monday, February 7, 2005. Message No.??
Good point, Dashaun. we can "acknowledge and recognize what's going on in 'dominant discourse' " without name-calling. Without insulting the intelligence of those who disagree with us. Words matter. Words hurt. Hurt brings out the fight or flight response, and doesn't help at all with communication. I'm sorry that some of your friends were offended. Maybe you could ask them to try again, and to share with us what offends. In the real world out there where we need this communication if governance discourse is going to work, offending people will not promote illocutionary discourse.
Joi wrote on May 17, 2005 - Message No. 4788:
If I understand correctly, we are to read the viewpoints of others and comment what our views and experiences are and then agree to disagree if necessary. Learning that there are many other viewpoints out there and that none of them are the total "right" answer, just another point of view.jeanne responded: Tuesday, May 17, 2005. Message No. 4790:
Good summary, Joi. That's how transparent grading is done. We all share perspectives in illocutionary discussion, which is the technical term for what you explained. jeanneWednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749
Joi wrote:
Oh my goodness!!! I have not heard anything about this event taking place.
The police should have been able to spray the man with pepperspray or maybe even a tazer gun, just to subdue him so they could safely get the kids away from him and then deal with the man.
I think it is a shame that police feel they should shoot first and then think later.
jeanne reponds: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
We hadn't heard about it, Joi, because it happened in Kenosha. Police, especially in urban metropolitan areas like L.A. have histories of racial and ethnic bias that make us instantly suspicious when they shoot to kill. The problem with this knee jerk reaction of "overkill" is that we don't have any time set aside for real governance discourse in the respective communities about how the community feels such violence and threats should be handled. First on our list should be illocutionary discourse , designed to let police and community members hear each other in good faith and share each others' feelings. This is made even more difficult in recent years, especially in urban areas, where police tend not to live in the areas they patrol.
Joi Dudley wrote on March 7, 2005 in Message No. 3444
She says among other things, equally important:
A lot of times homeless people are not really willing to work, or may be sick in some sort of way, but we are all to choose to love each other and care about what happens to each other. But to me it seems that there is no real love for the homeless. It seems that people care more about animals and abortions than they do about men, women and children living on the street who need help also.
I am not saying we need to give a couple of quarters to every homeless person that we see, but we could at least speak to them when we see them on the street. Sometimes that will make their whole day, just to know someone cared enough to say, "Hi".
jeanne responded: Wednesday, May 17, 2005. Christ-Like or Christian Behavior
Joi is raising very real questions here about our assumption that everyone is or "should be" like us: hard working, thrifty, courteous, caring. C'mon, guys, even the non-homeless and the wealthy aren't consistently "proper according to middle class family values." These are what Martha Minow, a Harvard Law Professor of social justice calls "unstated assumptions." And she speaks of how those unstated assumptions lead us to misinterpret one another's values, ideas, behavior. This would be a good time to review that file.
Joi also brings up the important illocutionary step of just speaking to the Other. She's right, you know. We're often so determined to persuade the Other to think and behave as we do that we don't even bother to say "hello," the tip of the beginning of listening in good faith. Exclusion, not being acknowledged or spoken to in the presence of those who "belong," is painful, unnecessarily painful, and it often sends the excluded other into deeper anger and/or depression. Shouldn't we ask how this relates to the amount of rage that erupts in our homes, our schools, and on our highways?
Angelina wrote May18, 2005 - Message No. 4802:
What I like about going to church is the unity of Christians coming together with the same beliefs. It is important to me to be able to unite with fellow Christians because it give's me strength to make it through another week and continue to be saved. There is a special spirit that I feel present from Heaven when we come together as on in Christ from God. I receive a spiritual fullfillment that I usually do not feel outside of Church.jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
That's a good response Angelina, because you've put it in terms of its meaning for you. Denice (Message No. 4757) was trying to figure out whether "one" simply had to go to church. And I think your response suggests that if church is to have the effect of communion it has for you, one needs to bring that quality to the church.
Miko wrote April 9, 2005 - Message No. 3931:
How do you know?jeanne responded: Saturday, April 9, 2005.
One of the major questions of all time, Miko. Must all knowledge be interpreted through our senses, through our ability to comprehend? Existentialism would say yes. Nag me to put up more on existentialism. And Jacqueline's and Shon's answers come from belief. Jacqueline recalls the position of pantheisim in which God is everywhere and in all things, and so we must know God, as we know ourselves. Problem here is in how we define knowledge. But the real issue is that we collectively seem to be able to establish some form of dominant discourse in which we can agree on, if not God's "existence," then some sort of mutual understanding of values and humaneness.
Miko wrote March 2, 2005 - Message No. 3377:
what do you think of bush's proposal on allowing charitable organizations to question a person's faith as a hiring practice?jeanne responded: May 18, 2005,.
Good question, Miko. I went back and pulled this up because others were concerned about it, too. This is one where we don't have lots of answers; it takes us by surprise in this country; we need to keep it in the forefront of our dicussions. What role religion? jeanne
Michael wrote April 6, 2005 - Message No. 3888:
Greetings ALL,Rappers - great topic and one in which i see a great disparity from the music of the 60's and 70's, the music i was traised on. I see a fundamental shift in the "Men"-tality. first and foremost the rappers or hip hop artists are the role models for today's youth. They have power and privelege and the bucks that come along with both. I see them as having adopted the status quo of the masters, in that they treat women as less than slaves and even brag about doing so. Along with video, including games, movies and media have succeeded in turning back the clock for the women's movement and even social justice about thirty years. This attitude coupled with the bushes of the world are part and parcel of why we have so little or no social justice in the world. There is no one single element in this catastrophic social milieu that can be held directly responsible, but then again who shapes the younger generation more, politics or the music industry? Decades ago Dylan sang "Blowin' in the wind" and "Masters of War" or "Hurricane". The Airplane spoke of "Volunteers" of America. Billy Holiday sang "Strange Fruit". Quicksilver Messenger Service asked "What about Me" thirty years ago this tune was penned and it is as revelent today as it ever was...People wrote and sang about the human condition, social justice, and other very important issues of the global condition. Kids today have so much power, and they turn on themselves, their own sisters, and brag about destroying women by exploiting them...
jeanne responded: Wednesday, April 6, 2005. Message No. 3890:
wow, do I have lots to say. I grew up with the music you're talking about.And today, I have the time to say it, finally. You give a good description, Michael, of the music of the '60's and 70's, and recently one of the papers, either New York Times or L.A. Times noted what has gone "wrong" with hip hop. What the author said was very close to what you've said. Instead of dealing with the issues of social justice, of exploitation, of oppression, of injustice in the procurement and management of wealth,, hip hop has continued to focus on male prerogatives and violence. Prof. Sharon Squires spoke, as I recall, on the meaning of hip hop, or shared the podium with someone who did. We need to explore this issue a great deal more. It will lead us directly into criminology and corrections. jeanne
Destiny wrote on May 17, 2005 - Message No. :
. . .jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
. . .
Alteresa wrote May 18, 2005 - Message No. 4823:I, too, feel that attending church is necessary because it's nice to hear the word, and it also makes my day go by faster after i have attended services. And I feel that if you have children it can be a good foundation for them. From my understanding, if you raise your child or children in the church they will not forget their values.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
Good response, Alteresa. You've given several reasons. One is narrative, explaining your own personal experience, and how going to church makes you feel. On that, please check out what I said to Rosa Ulloa. I'm surprised that you are glad the day goes by faster. I usually want to slow mine down. But I suspect that this is just another way of saying that you like finding the centering and security that a shared community of belief offers. I'll bet you would like to slow your days down a little, too.
You've provided another good response in restating church attendance as a kind of dominant discourse version of family values. Children who have the community that goes with regular attendance at church are exposed to support for behavior that hopefully more often than not leads to fitting in well with social values as they grow older. I'd like you to confirm for me that you can see this way of stating it as a conceptual link to the study for this course.
Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3751
Jacqueline wrote:
jeanne, I did not see this website in Dear Harbermas, thanks for bringing it to my attention. I hope each group member has read this webpage. I especially like, "Illocutionary discourse: is that focused on understanding in good faith the different perspectives and validity claims of others, who see things differently from the way you do." We all have our own opinion on the issues discussed. I expect that each of us are taking into consideration that we will not all agree on the topics discussed.
Jacqueline K. Jones-Lee
jeanne:
Jacqueline, I'm so glad I thought to put it up. I'm writing on the recent issues now, and hope to have them all up soon. Thank you for wanting to learn. jeanne Jacqueline wrote April 6, 2005 - Message No. 3886:
My eighteen year old is into the modern Gospel rappers. I think that's great, yet I don't really care for that music either. The lyrics are great; just not feeling it.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, April 6. Message No. 3891:
Jacqueline, could you get your eighteen-year-old to share in this discussion and react to some of what Michael in message no. 3888 had to say about the music of the '60s and '70s?
J Joo wrote May 15, 2005:my message numbers are as follow: 4005, 4043, 4044, 4049, 4051, 4086, 4087, 4089, 4090, 4091, 4111, 4112, 4125, 4127, 4136, 4145, 4199, 4201, 4487, 4488, 4497, 4498, 4499, 4510, 4511, 4513, 4514, 4017, 4018, 4020, 4021, 4022, 4540, 4542, 4547, 4548, 4549, 4584
jeanne responded: Tuesday, May 17, 2005.:
J Joo, I am so sorry about the e-mail problem as I changed over to cable. You have been absolutely prolific this semester. Thanks ever so much for sending all the numbers. jeanne
J Joo wrote May 6, 2005. Message No. 4584:
First of all, let's make this clear that i don't want anyone to burn in Hell. It's clear that some may have conceived my sayings as offensive attacks being 'he wants to see and loves saying people going to Hell.' That's furthest from the truth.
I don't have any ill feelings toward Michael, Miko, or anyone else. I do respect their sayings, (because i believe it's from knowledge gathered from experience) even though i may not agree with all of their sayings, i have learned from their perspectives. In this forum we're here to disocver, discuss and learn matters important and passionate to each person. How are going to find out without being passionate about it? And as many of you have noticed already, my position is based on having the Bible as my final authority; that's my 'passion and importance.' . . .
jeanne responded: Tuesday, May 17, 2005. Message No. X:
J Joo, this is a really important statement. It goes to the depth of most of the arguments in religion that led us for a long time to say we must not discuss religion. Particularly today, when religious issues and moral and spiritual issues have assumed such a leading role, in both politics and education, as well as civic life, we need to talk about religion and we need desperately to understand one another, so that we can live peacefully together.Not killing each other would be a good start, but I think it needs to go much deeper into learning to respect each other.
Your first sentence says it well: "I don't want anyone to burn in Hell," and that apparently includes Michael and Miko. I'm pretty sure that Michael and Miko, whom I've observed in lots of face-to-face discussions, would agree. That is the essence of illocutionary discourse, which is represented in our discussions here. Illocutionary discourse means that we are trying to understand one another, to see why and how the Other has come to a conclusion or interpretation that is different from ours. In that effort we have to open ourselves to hear in good faith the Other's arguments and to examine self-reflectively our own arguments.That is another way of saying we need to be aware of and take responsibility for relating to each other with respect and without exploitation and domination. You say this very well when you say that "I do respect their sayings, (because i believe it's from knowledge gathered from experience) even though i may not agree with all of their sayings". Such a conclusion follows directly from illocutionary discourse as described by Maria Pia Lara, the Mexican philosopher.
Jae Joo wrote May 19, 2005. Message No. :
Romans 5:3-5 "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."
Biblical Christianity adheres not only finding joy in the good things of God, but can glory in the troubles that come their way. Paul told the Corinthians that he gloried in his infirmities, the troubles he experienced in his bodily health. He also told the Corinthians, "I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Cor. 7:4) He even told his converts in Ephesus that the troubles through which he went for them was their "glory."(Eph. 3:13)
That is Paul¡¯s attitude towards the troubles he experienced, and it is bothersome to many in ways including me. Paul always had the victory. We tend to be more like Job: "just leave me alone and let me swallow my own spit" (Job 7:19). But Paul always seems to go through trouble with a smile on his face and a song in his heart. If he could do that, you and I can too and we can share these type of messages to others who are in need.
Many homeless people feel as though they are rejected from society and for those veterans especially from the nation they gave their life to protect. The tribulations these people go through are downright harsh and sometimes unthinkable for us who have place to live and a loving family to go to everyday. What can Bible offer them? What kind encouragement can we share as Christians or as a human being? I think sometimes it is imperative to share to them of the life of Paul as an encouragement and hope. As with experience goes, I have talked to and I guess ministered to few homeless people who reside under the bridge on Temple and Alvarado under 105 freeway. General public has put these homeless people in a category of unwanted and undesirable. They feel that way which is the downfall of this society. They have no hope. Korean veteran Steve told me of how he hates the government and how hard it is for his best friend who is also a veteran trying to live another day just to stay alive with some change and food they receive from missions and churches and people. These people have feelings and intelligence as "us". However they are at a point where it is just so hard for them to "pick" themselves up. If we want to apply the Christ-like behavior into this, then here are some of His characters we ought to consider and follow:
1. He was loving. The saviour's love was manifested toward mankind. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 8:9, "or ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
2. He was compassionate. The Bible's shortest verse says, "Jesus wept." John 11:35. Jesus' compassion was manifested toward the multitudes in Mark 6:34. His compassion caused Him to be concerned for people¡¯s physical needs, John 6:5. His compassion toward sinners caused Him to heal the blind, Matthew 20:34. He had compassion on those possessed with demons, Mark 9:22 and Luke 4:41. He had compassion on the poor lepers, Mark 1:41. He became a Sheperd to the lost sheep. He became a Saviour to the doomed. He healed the sick. He cast out demons. He loved in word and deed.
3. He was prayerful. The four gospels give us a glimpse of the great prayer life of the Saviour, but none so strong as Hebrew 5:7 which says, "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears."
4. He was meek. He had an attitude of mind that was opposed to contentiousness. Meekness was manifest in His gentleness and tenderness toward others.
5. He was humble. He was humble and lowly in heart according to Matthew 11:29 The humility of Jesus allowed Him to associate with publicans and sinners, Luke 15:1-2. He obeyed Paul's admonition not to mind men of high estate but to "condescend to men of low estate." The Bible said "he humbled himself."
If we put aside all our differences, (like in a perfect world) whether you are a conservative or liberal, whether you're a Christian or Muslim or atheist, whether you¡¯re rich or poor, and have these characters applied in our lives toward not just the homeless, but unto the Others, (it this is hard for the tribulation, patience, and experience and hope each person went through and has may differ and is usually different.) the world wouldn't be where it is. When was last time did we pray for the homeless and put our shoes in theirs to understand what they are going through and shown love and compassion to them not in word only, but in deed? It is hard for many of the homeless to "get up" from the "fallen state." They find refuge in drugs and alcohol. Once I gave the guy some change and he went straight to the liquor store around the corner. What can you do? I personally think that in order for the homeless to lift themselves up, they need direction and guidance with encouragement daily and constantly. They need to put their desire for alcohol and drugs unto other areas such as working and just finding ways to live in this tough world. It sounds simple but we all understand how addiction grabs people and never let them go. Why not offer some spiritual guidance and encouragement through the Bible or others, where we can share the same hardships Jesus Christ and Paul went through and maybe ours as well, and how they can have comfort through these and our lives and ultimately "get up"? Understanding and sharing tribulation, patience and experience with hope may be the source of 'way out' and 'getting up' these people may have been seeking. Having these characters and applying these toward homeless and to others in general ought to be, as a human being, with all religion and doctrines and differences aside, even though it is hard and we're so stubborn, the ultimate goal.
Thus "Giving" is the word. When General William Booth was asked to send out a cable gram to all members of the Salvation Army, General Booth sent out one word in that cable gram:
"OTHERS."
jeanne responded: Thurssday, May 19, 2005.: Nice quote from General William Booth. I didn't know that. JJ, you are saying many of the same things we discuss in illocutionary discourse, and you are saying them well. You are dressing them in a Christian message, but you are recognizing that the message could be dressed in other philosophical orientations. That is good, since other such orientations exist, and we'll probably never reach consensus on any given single such orientation. Isn't it interesting that the real message could be put so simply? Others. I also think you've done a good job of giving some specifics. I'm impressed that you are following through in actually reaching out to the homeless. As Joi reminded us, we must no exclude them. And about the liquor store with the money you gave, maybe that is the stage of the path on which that person needs to be right now. His path. We can still respect his human need to find his path, as we all must. love and peace, jeanne
laguna beach wrote May 18, 2005 - Message No. 4830:What a slap in the face to the Congressional Black Caucus, to continue seeking Brown's appointment after they objected. Especially after seeking the Black vote this past election. To nominate someone that the CBC does not believe will work in the best interests of minorities is insensitive, to say the least. If's she's appointed, we'll all be the losers.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, May 18, 2005. Message No. :
Glad you posted that. I haven't been following with all the catchup now that I have e-mail again. If we look at this conceptually, the present administration is disrespecting the answerability of the Congressional Black Caucas. Recent behavior (2000 and on) on voting has also disrespected Blacks' answerability. That does not bode well, for Blacks are powerful as a group. To deny answerability is to risk the loss of loyalty, something Dubya values greatly. Again, like others of you, I wonder about how Condi Rice tolerates the inner conflict. jeanne
Sarah wrote March 30, 2005 - Message No. 3745:
i know that csudh students are taking some sort of religion course and i havent really involved myself with those sorts of discussions but do you agree with evolution or not and why?
jeanne responds: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:CSUDH students are taking a fairly independent look at religion as a present social issue, Sarah. I'm working right now on getting essays from a variety of sources up. Meanwhile, here's a brief answer to your question:
evolution is a scientific theory that offers one plausible explanation for how life and our ecological world developed. We have lots of scientific evidence to suggest that evolution is a reasonable explanation. We call that kind of scientific evidence logos. At the same time we have a very long history of mythos, or explanation for who we are and how and why we are here in terms of ancient mythological beliefs that have existed before written records. Humans seem to need mythos as the story that fills in the human spaces in the scientific skeleton provided by scientific explanations.
Mythos depends on the stories as we have inherited them from our living histories. Logos depends on all that we have learned scientifically. Intuition and spiritual belief merge with mythos and logos to create the web of our understandings and beliefs.
Do I believe in evolution? Yes. I understand the theory and the evidence. Is it the "right" explanation or the only "explanation?" Well, it makes more sense in a common sense world than saying the world was "created" in 7 of our days. But mythos and spiritual beliefs require interpretation. So it's problable the creation story doesn't mean 7 of our days, or that it was a sacred spiritual time that doesn't mean the same as "time" as we use that word in science.
In other words, there are limits to my knowledge in mythos, logos, intuition, and spirituality. Those are human limits that another of our mythos stories tells us we shouldn't try to overcome by taking an apple from the tree of knowledge. There's so much I can learn and know about that that limitation doesn't bother me. But there are lots of people who refuse limitations. I call that the arrogance of "knowingness."
Does that help? I'll put this up on the site as a lecture. jeanne
Saturday, February 5, 2005. Message No. 2950
Jason: Jeanne we will change him.
Happy Superbowl. I just wanted to send this e-mail to let you know that myself, Sawson, and Felicia are in O.W.s 'Criminal Law Procedures' class. I've already argued with him when he exclaimed to my Constitutional Law class that Republicans have been the standard bearer for the promotion and inclusion of minorities during the past 50 years. He started to name your typical white-washed players ( Rice, Powell, some four star generals). To that, I responded, "Well, now that you have rattled off all of those puppets, please explain to me what Republicans have done for minority inclusion".
The class erupted in laughter. Jason= 1 O.W. = 0
jeanne:
Jason, I love you, I really do. But I'm gonna tear my hair out if I can't teach you what Gordon Fellman was telling us about adversarial compulsion. Adverasarial Obsessiveness . We live in a world that sees all things as competitive. You gotta win. You gotta be No. 1. The history books don't remember No.2. Gee, I hate that idea. Fellman pleads that we consider mutuality, sharing, the goodness of a community that seeks a supportive environment in which to grow and realize our achievements without having to "take them forcefully from others we can best. I hate the reality shows. sometimes the contestants even seem to end up caring about each other in spite of all the competition. (I saw one episode of the Big Loser, so mys sampling technique is not exactly justificabel.) It goes against the human grain, this adversarialism.
I agree with you, Jason. To discuss criminal law procedure today without making the class aware of the human rights violations we have continued to deny and cover up (which can be seen in a lot of legislative grumbling before the confirmatin of Gonazalez as Attorney General) would leave a gap in illocutionary discussion of the red states and the blue states trying to understand one another.
But you guys already know that. You've gotta go for illocutionary understanding. For recognizing that O.W. is excluding your arguments, not hearing some reports that the world may not be quite as he sees it, and that you, who have an opportunity to join him in learning how that group of republicans does see the world, need to do more than "best" him at his argument.
O.W. has qualities I value beyond measure. He trusts his friends. And it isn't hard to be his friend. He's a stand-up kind of guy. And that's hard to get growing up 45 miles from where I did in a South that still occasionally fills my nightmares. That pisses off people who wand him to conform, to know that they "know" to be true, and "accept the better world to come."
I don't want you to let him know he's "wrong" according to some scholarly interpretations. (So are half the freakin' country.) I want you to ask him, not adversarily, but in real time, real terms, what things led him to think he's right. Don't best him. Try to understand him. To best him holds little honor, for he has come from a world where his voice was to have been suppressed. At least he has made his voice, and the voice of others who share his views (half of us, remember - and Bush's new target audience to win over is Black Churches!) heard in his community. Reach out to him. He's a good friend. He won't always see things the way you want, but neither will many black elders, or any other group of elders, for that matter. But we have to solve social problems with them, not against them. And when you need them, and you have made a genuine effort to befriend them as befits illocutionaray discourse, they will be the truest and most trustworthy friends of all. They are family.
Remind me to get up more material from Fellman's adversarialism. We need it. Meanwhile:
Adversarialism is a learned attitude that reflects competition and the need to "best" others. Gordon Fellman, in Rambo and the Dalai Lama suggests that our culture has become so adversarial that we are obsessively competitive, and that our cooperation with one another in our communities suffers from that compulsive adversarialsim. Fellman suggests that we need a paradigm (model) shift in which we learn to emphasize competition and one-up-manship less and cooperation and mutuality more. From our vocabulary index.Hope to hear from you guys regularly on this. jeanne
Jason - Monday, February 7, 2005. Message No. 2959 "Jeanne, I'm sitting here at work and I'm wondering. Does religion (in its current zealot causing state) discourage illocutionary discourse? Not to simplify a problem, or make it too colloquial, but if the warirng religious factions (both here -- Asia --Middle East etc) took time to understand the others' religions (as opposed to sentencing them to eternal damnation), the wars around this world would dissipate to almost nil.jeanne's response: Monday, February 7, 2005. Message No. 2959
No sh*&#, Sherlock, what was your first clue?
Sorry, Jason, I couldn't resist. I've been away for a day and a half, and yours was the first message I picked up - your title intrigued me. Yeah, if we listened to one another, the whole problem would disappear. Also if we tried living our own lives instead of telling everyone else how to live theirs. Actually, I'm real glad you're picking this up on your own. The concept may not bring world peace with it, but it will help you to understand when you're being silenced and manipulated, so you can opt for alternatives.
love and peace, jeanne
Murjani wrote April 4, 2005 - Message No. 3835:Jeanne,
I believe that these rappers really do go through a lot of problems. Being a rapper can lead to the wrong image and preception of their lives. Many times it is the wrong impression. Unfrotunately, it can be recognized a little too late. We need to have a positive outlook for these rappers, especially because they are making an honest living. They speak about their lives, and other people's lives. A lot of the times they also speak about what is going on in the world, and that gets them criticized and ridiculed. For example, Tupac. He always spoke about the things that were going on in the world. It made me respect him and love his music. Rappers are people too, and they are not immune to the dangers and to life.
jeanne responds: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3836:
Yes, Murjani, rappers do speak of the world, as did Tupac. The world is such a different experience to so many of us. And as we try to understand each other so that we can live together (illocutionary understanding), we need to be aware of the extent to which we often draw boundaries around what we will hear in good faith, and what we will not.The painting or drawing by Tifenn on the LA Calendar cover reminded me that the bars are not a mere boundary against or for the outside world, the bars extend over the skin and the clothing of those who are caged within. Reminded me of the drawing of New Skin.
I'd like to hear some others respond to this, and Murjani, I'd like to get a little more detail on what Tupac talked about that you're referring to. jeanne
Linda wrote Friday, April 20, 2005 - Message No. 4885:AMEN! Michael. Words are just that. I love to get at the heart of the matter quickly - can't stand beating around the bush - no pun on my president!!! Sometimes the most productive outcomes derive from a little heat! No offense taken at anything anyone said all semester. We can't all agree - show me I'm wrong and I will come around to the other side. If not... I stand firm. "Scary Kerry" was actually part of the campaign, I can't take credit for the originality there. "Dubya" also. Doesn't offend me in the least. What's one person's trash is another's treasure. Doesn't that fit here?
There are sorrows and hatred and violence all around us. You are right about that. We can hold a mirror to it and maybe someone will see the error of their ways. It's not all going to go away and again, I agree with you in that its not our choice for our lives. I'm just striving to make a difference in my little corner of the big world. Have a great day and Peace to All. Linda
jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
. . .
Irma wrote May 18, 2005 - Message No. 4821:HOMELESS ISSUE, THAT'S A TOUGH TOPIC/SITUATION...I THINK WE REALLY CAN'T JUDGE THE HOMELESS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T LIVED THEIR LIVES, BEEN IN THEIR SHOES. I'M NOT RICH, BUT I'M SURE EVEN THE RICH GO THROUGH DIFFICULT TIMES. IT'S NOT TO SAY WE WON'T BE THERE, CAN'T BE THERE, BUT ONLY STRIVE FOR WHAT WE WANT. MANY HOMELESS DO NOT BOTHER ANYONE, AND FOR THOSE THAT ASK FOR MONEY TO FEED THE ADDICTION, WELL IT IS UP TO THE GIVER TO GIVE OR NOT TO GIVE. BUT IT'S TRUE, WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP THE HOMELESS?
jeanne responded: Wednesday, May 18, 2005. Message No. :
Irma, this is a good summary of what came out of the homeless discussion, but I'd like you to comment on the extent to which the discussion clarifies for us that there are both philosophical and social justice issues that require theory and organizational management, as well as the simpler personal level on which we need to cope with these issus. I think that's what you're saying, but could you resay it in my academic language? jeanne
Sabrina wrote May 12, 2005 - Message No. 4722:
The bible says that we should fellowship with the saints. Church is what's in your heart. You fellowship with others in church to keep you strong and encouraged. It's not necessary, it's a choice. Church is necessary for me because I feel that when I'm there, I am not alone in the struggles that I go through. I may meet someone there that has been through the same type of struggle and learn that God will bring me through, just as he brought someone else through the same situation.jeanne responded: Wednesday, March 30, 2005. Message No. 3749:
Good response, Sabrina. I'll try to pull all this together in a single piece once grades are in. You are responding with personal experience, and offering a narrative of how church feels for you. Check out my response to Rosa Ulloa on the value of personal experience in such discourse. Sabrina wrote Maay 18, 2005 - Message No. 4813:I looked at the drawing of, "Drawing on Deep Black Holes of Depression Distract from Awareness". I looked at this drawing and asked myself, "how did jeanne capture my life in this drawing?" I am truely apart of the supermom phenomenon. I sometimes don't know whether I'm coming or going. Being a single mother of 3 and a full time student, and a full time employee, I often complain that there is not enough time in the day. I think that we as women have a true gift to handle many task at one time. God has equipped us with gifts that men could never understand.(lol) I wear many hats and somehow, I am able to handle them all. My world is constantly moving. The funny thing is that I enjoy it and I would not change a thing. So I say for all of you phenominal supermoms, keep up the good work!
Sabrina Pumphrey
jeanne responded: Maay 20, 2005. Message No. 4889:
Sabrina, that's an interesting response. I drew the image while thinking of how many of us share the newly-flaunted depression and all the Prozac look-alikes. But you're very much right. Some of us love the fast track. It's just that some of us can't take it. I think the reason the painting works for us is that we're finding ways to avoid those deep black holes into which others are falling. By the waay, Sabrina, where is that painting? I lost the file. jeanane
Ignacio wrote March 4, 2005 - Message No. 3412:I was reading a ver intresting article on the fact that the supreme court ruled on tuesday that it was unconstitutional to give youths under 18 the death penalty. We were one of 5 countries in the world that punished youths in that way. The others Iran, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, China. Which happen to be the countries that the US is always criticizing for thier views on human rights. Looks like up to recently we weren't that much better. Is any one else surprised?
Ignacio Ramosjeanne responded: Wednesday, May 18, 2005. Message No. :
Ignacio, I'm glad you were surprised. Try to hold on to that. Most of us are surprised when we take a really close look at our criminal justice system. We talk about going to church on Sunday and leading a kind of dominant discourse life, and we tend to be unaware of how many today fall between the cracks. This is a piece of what the huge gap in wealth means in this country, that some do not have the stable home life that permits of what dominant discourse would say was normal everyday living. I'm glad you expressed your surprise.
Ignacio wrote May 18, 2005 - Message No. 4805:What I've learned- I understand the concept of spirituality and the need to explore oneself spiritually. Now how it applies to civic life, I have been learning that this semster on Transform. I see the fact that all human beings have a need for a higher power and how that affects the decisions we make and our outlook on life. One aspect I have been looking at is when juveniles who get into trouble or become abused, say that god has given up on them. It's hard to see the sadness and the hate they develop for religion. I have learned the concept of needing that reassurance and how critical it is for some people to believe that someone is watching over them and everyone else.
jeanne responded: Wednesday, May 18, 2005. Message No. :
Good response, Ignacio. And good practice translating straightforward language into the more formal discussion of the academy. jeanne
Denise wrote May 16, 2005 - Message No. 4757:I think going to church is necessary. It is written in Hebrews 10 verses 24-25 that we are to provoke one another to good works and not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. This assembling is generally understood to refer to church attendance. The problem is that there are some who try to dictate parameters as to what constitutes an acceptable level of attendance. To me, that is not acceptable. Denice Roberts
jeanne responded: Monday, May 16, 2005. Message No. 4784:
Denice, I'm so proud that you figured out the system. I'm impressed that you can quote chapter and verse for the Bible's admonition that church attendance is necessary. The is religious authority, and belief that the religious authority you accept urges attendance. I'd also like to make the conceptual link that the church is trying to organize belief around a certain set of spiritual values. Most institutions, if not all, attempt to organize at least civic and work values around dominant discourse beliefs. Social psychological research indicates that when people do not meet frequently to reassess their interpretation of their ideas and beliefs they tend to diverge in practice and belief fairly quickly.
Consider the methodology of participant observation that we teach in the behavioral sciences. If we have more than one observer we have to have them meet frequently to review the measures we are using to be sure that their observations correlate well with one another. If we want to teach our workers to share instead of being competitive, we have to be sure we reinforce that perspective at frequent intervals. In China, now that there is no more Communist Party enforcement of weekly neighborhood meetings, there are other kinds of committee meetings in neighborhoods to guarantee that thinking stays pretty much along acceptable lines. Remember cognitive dissonance. If we get together often enough and share with each other the dominant discourse on which we are operating, the very time and effort we spend doing that reinforces that dominant discourse.
Why would the Bible address the issue? Because there have always been many religions, many sects, many more moderate and many more extreme groups. By stressing the importance of attending services of some sort, the Bible is providing the need to reinforce beliefs as against other inimical or more radical or conservative beliefs.
Denice, could you please let me know that this makes sense to you, and that you see how this conceptually relates the question to the practice of religion as a present social issue? Ask questions anyone who needs to. jeanne
