A Justice Site
September 11, 2001 by Alfie Kohn
Mirror Sites:
CSUDH - Habermas - UWP
Caliifornia State University, Dominguez Hills
University of Wisconsin, Parkside
Created: September 24, 2001
Latest Update: September 28, 2001
jeannecurran@habermas.org
takata@uwp.edu
Reactions to Alfie Kohn's September 11
Copyright: Jeanne Curran and Susan R. Takata and Individual Authors: September 2001.
"Fair use" encouraged.
- September 11, 2001 by Alfie Kohn. backup
- "Revenge shouldn't be the government way, it is God's way." Journal entry by Perry, UWP
- Can't Wait "I agree with Perry, but . . ." Christina Beals, UWP, response to Perry, UWP.
- Some Rules Are Necessary to Function Journal entry by Amy Reilly, UWP
- "The Article Does Help Put Things into Perspective" Journal entry by Adam Beau, UWP
- The Need for Rules to Consider Feedback Journal entry by Christina Beals, UWP
- The Importance of Education Journal entry by Jeni Cuccia, UWP
"Revenge shouldn't be the government way, it is God's way." Journal entry by Perry, UWP On Monday, September 24, 2001, Perry, UWP, wrote:
Subject: Reaction to Alfie Kohn article
I feel this is a powerful message pertaining to what has happened in the past which is now history. It is important to realize what has taken place when and what went down at that time. This has been a continuation of evil, and, in my opinion, you do not fight fire with fire. The logical thing to do, in my opinion, would be to sit down and compromise and try to come to some kind of peace with ourselves as well as others. I am heart broken over this whole disaster. It is taking the lives of others which isn't God's way. "Revenge shouldn't be the government way, it is God's way."On Monday, September 24, 2001, jeanne responded:
Perry, you raise many important issues here: revenge versus forgiveness, confusion of the innocent with the guilty, the extent to which religion plays a role in our discourse in a state that holds the state and religion separate. Many of these issues will be addressed in the near future (I hope) with teaching essays. But meanwhile, I'd like to hear all our feelings about these issues.love and peace, jeanne
On Friday, September 28, 2001, Christina Beals wrote:
I just finished reading Perry's response to the Alfie Kohn article, and I partial agree with perry. I agree that you can't fight fire with fire and we need to find a different way to address this issue, but all of America was threatened and hurt by the attacks, and most people can't just sit around and wait for god to do something.
jeanne's comment:
Christina I had an artist friend, Manny, who told me that my favorite prayer was "God, grant me patience. RIGHT NOW!" Manny died a few years ago. But his version of my prayer comes back to haunt me with full force at times like this.
America doesn't feel safe right now and we need to know that someone is doing something to help us regain the security we felt before the acts were committed.
Christina
My reaction to Alfie Kohn is this... I believe Kohn brought up a wonderful argument about teaching the children to do what they are told or to do what they think is right. I think this statement could be argumentative because if we start letting children have a broader freedom spectrum then we are asking for more problematic issues among the children of today.jeanne's comment: Amy, Could you be more specific about these problematic issues you foresee? As I understand it, you are suggesting that if children were taught to think for themselves that there would be less conformity at times when it is needed. Is that right?It is said in our justice system that children can think for themselves at age 7, but it is also said that children do not have their own voice in decision making unless backed up by a guardian. So I don't think that we are telling our children anything with September 11th tragedy. People were unaware of what was really going on and had to act in a manner that they conceived to be in their best interest for themselves and also for the people around them. This wasn't a well thought out, time consuming order, but in the moment of terror it seemed, to the people in power, the most sensible order.Do you think we relied on the conformity of obeying rules for our response to this crisis, once we had time to organize our thoughts? Or did we simply move to one-sided arguments in our communication? (Nag me to put up link to attitude change and persuasion theory.)
Amy Reilly
jeanne's comment: Good point, Amy. At moments of terror, our responses are automatic. Perhaps what we are teaching our children doesn't really come into play at that point. Although, I wonder if Alfie Kohn might not say that if our most-reinforced response over many years of teaching is to follow orders, that that might color our response in a crisis. What do you think?
Hello Susan, this is Adam Beau from your MWF corrections class. This is in response to the Alfie Kohn article. Before reading it, I was pretty much gung ho about the situation and only disagreed with our country's bombings, in that innocent lives might be lost. But for the most part I was hoping the U.S. would find some way to assassinate Bin Laden. While the terrorist attacks on American soil were appalling and horrific, the article does help put things into perspective on behalf of the people who committed these disgusting acts. That still doesn't give anybody the right to play the avenging angel, despite what the U.S. has done. This also does help give a better understanding to why people were cheering in the street, to them it was the big bully finally getting knocked down.
Hi, Adam.Your comment shows a lot of insight. It is precisely the talking through of public discourse on these issues that tempers our understanding and our response. That's why Susan posted Alfie Kohn's article, so that a public intellectuals response could become part of our discourse. Many of us in the US are unaware of the the effects our foreign policy has had over the years, whether intended or unintended. Curing that lack of awareness is one of our recovery tasks.
Your expectation that our government would assassinate Bin Laden fascinates me. It suggests that the US is still holding on to its ultimate belief that the death penalty will deter future perpetrators. And it suggests that there is a lingering sense of legitimacy when the assassination is carried out by the government. What about those leaders who disagreed with the administration's philosophy, but were not guilty of major atrocities, just philosophical differences? Is there to be any court to decide which case we are dealing with? Is there to be accountability to anyone? And how would accountability fit in with national security?
Our government has announced that it is going to release an analysis of Bin Laden's guilt. "[T]he administration concluded that international support for its planned military, diplomatic and economic retaliation is more imporrtant than the intelligence secrets that might be compromised." (Los Angeles Times, p.A1, September 24, 2001.) What intelligence secrets might be compromised? Will that compromise mean that friendlies will be identified, because there is no other way for some fact to have been known?
Also, if we assassinate Bin Laden, will that make of him a martyr to those who perceived September 11 as "the big bully finally getting knocked down."? Complex stuff, the death penalty, isn't it?
love and peace, jeanne
While growing up I was taught by both my educators and my parents. My educators always said it was better for us to just sit and listen for directions, wait until someone tells you what to do. Most educators still instill this attitude into our nation's children. Most people in the United States don't know how to think or act for themselves, there is very little independence or creativity around us because people just go with the flow. Sometimes I like to sit and watch people go about their business, like at work or at the university, and it looks as if every one is programed to do certains things, or talk a certain way. I am one of those people, but on the otherhand, I was raised by two of the most open-minded people any one can ever know. My parents taught me to be independent, and they taught me to make my own decisions. If I didn't like an aspect of my life or a situation I was in then I had the right to choose whether to stay or go.For instance, a few years ago, after the Colombine incident, my high school recieved a bomb threat, and it turned out to be just a threat, but when we all heard about it I wanted to go home. The school officials were adamant with all the students staying at school, but I was uncomfortable, so I called my father. He told me if I didn't want to be there, then I could leave, it was my decision, not the supervisors. So I left, nothing happened, but I talked to a lot of my class mates who said they were on the edge of their seat all day, and didn't learn a thing. So I didn't miss out on anything, but I felt safe at home the whole day. Now the one body wanted me to do as I was told, but the other source said to do what I thought was right. My second choice seemed to be better for me.
Christina, it's important to see the difference between following rules in order to keep a certain amount of order, and incorporating feedback to understand that sometimes the rationale for the rules isn't working for those for whom the rules were made. Your father recognized the structural violence inherent in keeping you in a place where you were scared for your safety. In acknowledging your fear, he was providing feedback into a system that operates largely without feedback from those it governs. Nag me to put up links to Habermas' critique of Luchmann's non-learning autopoetic sub-system as not allowing precisely for such feedback.This relates closely to Amy's expression of concern. Amy is focussed on the need for some order to keep the system functioning at a time of crisis. You are focussing on the need for the system to accept feedback such as you were giving to prevent further harm to those it is trying to organize into functioning order. This also brings us to the dilemma of bureaucracy and Weber's recognition of its dangers.
Good issues. Good choice of illustration.
love and peace, jeanne
I am just as guilty as all who want to retaliate for the September 11 attack. I was very closed minded to think no matter what it takes get those responsible. I have recently widened my circle to see the whole picture through education. The United States I once thought was so innocent is not anymore. Education shows us the whole truth. Seeing the whole truth will maybe change what we once thought was right to not be so right anymore. Education is key in determining our actions. Our actions will determine our future.Jeni Cuccia
I agree, Jeni. Education is an important key. Our beliefs and passions are strong. A goodly portion of what we do is what we're used to doing. But at times like these we need to rethink who we are and what we stand for. Education does help with that. Mannheim says "every form of historical and political thought is essentially conditioned by the life situation of the thinker and his groups." (Farganis, Readings in Social Theory, at. p.207)Shortly, Susan and I will have up a teaching essay on public intellectuals. That will give you more theoretical background for your position on the importance of education.
love and peace, jeanne